Push'n'Pop | Amstrad CPC Demoscene | Originality of a picture...

Originality of a picture...

voxfreax - 04 May 2010 - 15:42:38	223 posts
Hello. This is the first threat that I start :) Anyway, i discovered something recently.. A picture that was made in the CPC by MaDe (can be found here). Although until now we knew that this screen was transferred by him to CPC and that the original designer was Cougar of Sanity on Amiga (ranked #2 at The Party 91), according to Grimware. However the truth is a whole different story. I don't know if any of you know Tankard (some German thrash metalists)... Cougar even transferred the original screen to Amige :) Check Hair of the dog cover :) OOOOOOooooO!!!! What a coincidence :)

voxfreax - 04 May 2010 - 15:42:38

223 posts

Hello. This is the first threat that I start :)

Anyway, i discovered something recently.. A picture that was made in the CPC by MaDe (can be found here).

Although until now we knew that this screen was transferred by him to CPC and that the original designer was Cougar of Sanity on Amiga (ranked #2 at The Party 91), according to Grimware.

However the truth is a whole different story. I don't know if any of you know Tankard (some German thrash metalists)... Cougar even transferred the original screen to Amige :)

Check Hair of the dog cover :)

OOOOOOooooO!!!! What a coincidence :)

voxfreax - 04 May 2010 - 15:44:14	223 posts
Hey the links don't work!!!! AARFFF!!! Anyway... -1st link: http://grimware.org/lib/exe/fetch.php/graphics/made/rss1/g.rex.png -2nd link: http://www.metal-observer.com/articles.php?lid=1&sid=1&id=3030 Hopefully, this link bug is not included in v2 :)

Grim - 04 May 2010 - 16:13:04	521 posts
On Grimware, I only tried to find the source used to make the CPC image and MaDe used alot of Amiga pictures. But many classic pictures on Amiga are somehow inspired by other artists (Boris Vallejo, Luis Royo and Julie Bell being the most famous, but also from alot of hard/metal/punk rock bands like manowars, motorhead, megadeth or completely obscure/underground art stuff). Pablo said "Good artists copy, great artists steal." :)

Grim - 04 May 2010 - 16:13:04

521 posts

On Grimware, I only tried to find the source used to make the CPC image and MaDe used alot of Amiga pictures. But many classic pictures on Amiga are somehow inspired by other artists (Boris Vallejo, Luis Royo and Julie Bell being the most famous, but also from alot of hard/metal/punk rock bands like manowars, motorhead, megadeth or completely obscure/underground art stuff).

Pablo said "Good artists copy, great artists steal." :)

Toms - 04 May 2010 - 17:43:44	272 posts
@Voxfreax: I corrected your links. You have to use the [url] tag without quotes. Example: [url=http://www.barjack.com] INSTEAD OF [url="http://www.barjack.com"]

voxfreax - 04 May 2010 - 17:59:25	223 posts
sorry Toms :)

PulkoMandy - 04 May 2010 - 17:59:40	633 posts
http://www.kameli.net/nocopy/ ... so you thought they were all original works ?

voxfreax - 04 May 2010 - 19:15:20	223 posts
No, it never crossed my mind that everything was original! However, it was quite a surprise when I saw this dog on the cover of a German-thrash band! I thought that i had to share my discovery :)

fano - 04 May 2010 - 19:35:15	59 posts
Nice finding. hey pulko , you link is great.I saw a picture that remember me something :D look at this : http://www.kameli.net/nocopy/noc26.htm and now that : http://www.cpc-power.com/index.php?page=detail&num=938

Optimus - 04 May 2010 - 22:21:42	334 posts
Just a rant: I always found the graphics from Made (in CPC and other computers) very unoriginal since I know I have seen most of his themes in an older PC/Amiga demo which copied it from another non-scene artist. My question is, what is the copying most of those artist do? Just scan and retouch (still quite a work on the CPC, but easier on PC I think)? Or maybe some of them just use the original as a reference and draw it from scratch just by copying with their eyes? (For example, this pic by Archmage while it is the same thing, there seems to be pixeled from scratch and not scanned, there are quite much differences). Still, even if some only use the original as a reference and don't scan, it's not quite original. But I won't get further into this argument now :)

Optimus - 04 May 2010 - 22:21:42

334 posts

Just a rant: I always found the graphics from Made (in CPC and other computers) very unoriginal since I know I have seen most of his themes in an older PC/Amiga demo which copied it from another non-scene artist.

My question is, what is the copying most of those artist do? Just scan and retouch (still quite a work on the CPC, but easier on PC I think)? Or maybe some of them just use the original as a reference and draw it from scratch just by copying with their eyes? (For example, this pic by Archmage while it is the same thing, there seems to be pixeled from scratch and not scanned, there are quite much differences). Still, even if some only use the original as a reference and don't scan, it's not quite original. But I won't get further into this argument now :)

PulkoMandy - 04 May 2010 - 22:29:01	633 posts
http://pagesperso-orange.fr/pulko.mandy/shinra/makingof.shtml Sometimes you can start with a conversion and end up quite far from the original :) I used the same method for some other pictures and it gives pretty good results. I don't think it's a problem, as long as you don't say 'I did it pixel by pixel'. what about all these musics ripped/covered from games in CPC demos ? Or even worse, ripped from Atari ST ? Well for me it's fine, as long as it fits the mood of your demo. Of course it's better to have the music tailor-made for the demo (see Gates To Delirium in DemoIzArt to get an idea). But sometimessometimes existing is already perfect, so why spend time on it? Remember a _good_ conversion is still a lot of work, even if you start from a digit/scan/conversion. And finding a picture that fits your need can be harder than drawing it by yourself, too.

PulkoMandy - 04 May 2010 - 22:29:01

633 posts

http://pagesperso-orange.fr/pulko.mandy/shinra/makingof.shtml

Sometimes you can start with a conversion and end up quite far from the original :)
I used the same method for some other pictures and it gives pretty good results. I don't think it's a problem, as long as you don't say 'I did it pixel by pixel'.

what about all these musics ripped/covered from games in CPC demos ? Or even worse, ripped from Atari ST ? Well for me it's fine, as long as it fits the mood of your demo. Of course it's better to have the music tailor-made for the demo (see Gates To Delirium in DemoIzArt to get an idea). But sometimessometimes existing is already perfect, so why spend time on it?

Remember a _good_ conversion is still a lot of work, even if you start from a digit/scan/conversion. And finding a picture that fits your need can be harder than drawing it by yourself, too.

Optimus - 04 May 2010 - 22:38:45	334 posts
Funny, I am just reading the article from Danny where he goes against copies, in the no-copy page. Then I searched again for graphics of Danny and all I found is well known rips. Doesn't add :)

Optimus - 05 May 2010 - 20:26:59	334 posts
Actually, I was reading during the half of the article when I wrote this. Later he explains that he has copied too for learning purposes and that we are all rippers :)

MacDeath - 13 May 2010 - 23:05:17	179 posts
I'm at the moment re-doing graphics from R-Type... Well, I start with the speccy version, and have an arcade version opened in another window. The work to re-pixel properly is actually long and uneasy. Yet my results are with speccy/CPC limitations (tiles, shape) but the composition is far closer to the arcade (yet disformed). But games are a bit different perhaps. Even with a scan, the work on old retro computer is quite important. First : you are limited in number of colours, so have to dither a lot, also the pixels is not as smooth as you would like, and often quite big too. You have to redo the composition so it can fill in the screen, and is at such dimension that you can still get a decent representation with big square/rectangular pixels. "Tracing" is often used in Comics. Greg Land for exemple (Marvel artist...) is infamous for this : lots of superheroines are actually pornstars getting it analy... But if you just get inspired from original graphic, why not, if it's a simple port...well... Many sceners are more some kind of nerdz than real artists. A really original work is not that easy to produce. Also just getting some existing artwork on a standard like the CPC, with all its limitation, is an achievement in itself if the result is awesome.. And yeap, ripping is a way to train and getting better. PS : are you still burning policemen in Greece ?

MacDeath - 13 May 2010 - 23:05:17

179 posts

I'm at the moment re-doing graphics from R-Type...

Well, I start with the speccy version, and have an arcade version opened in another window.
The work to re-pixel properly is actually long and uneasy.

Yet my results are with speccy/CPC limitations (tiles, shape) but the composition is far closer to the arcade (yet disformed).
But games are a bit different perhaps.

Even with a scan, the work on old retro computer is quite important.
First : you are limited in number of colours, so have to dither a lot, also the pixels is not as smooth as you would like, and often quite big too.

You have to redo the composition so it can fill in the screen, and is at such dimension that you can still get a decent representation with big square/rectangular pixels.

"Tracing" is often used in Comics.
Greg Land for exemple (Marvel artist...) is infamous for this : lots of superheroines are actually pornstars getting it analy...

But if you just get inspired from original graphic, why not, if it's a simple port...well...
Many sceners are more some kind of nerdz than real artists.

A really original work is not that easy to produce.

Also just getting some existing artwork on a standard like the CPC, with all its limitation, is an achievement in itself if the result is awesome..

And yeap, ripping is a way to train and getting better.

PS : are you still burning policemen in Greece ?

rexbeng - 14 May 2010 - 01:21:00	132 posts
Nah, they actually didn't burn any policemen. Just three bank clerks... :/

voxfreax - 14 May 2010 - 11:27:56	223 posts
Hello MacDeath! I read your whole post and i agree. At my first post, I was just surprised of my finding. It was really strange for me to see that MaDe's dog (which was actually transfered from Amiga) was originally transfered by a cover of a Tankard's record. I am not against transferring/ scanning in general... As you said, is a good way to train and improve yourself. The most important thing is to 'take care' of the transfer (find the most appropriate colors, make smoothing nice, improve the edges, etc etc) like a lot of CPC guys do, including me in some cases... But there are people that just transfer and show this work as their own and THAT is FUCKING LAME and USELESS!!!! Anyway, I am happy to read about your R-Type project :) I think CPC misses a proper version of this game, despite the fact that i am not such of a gamer :) PS. Rex is right in his post. Some stupid guys burned 3 bank clerks after throwing molotov coctails inside a bank... Policemen cannot be burned that easily... But the real enemy is not the police. The real enemy is the Greek parliament and the 300 thieves that claim to be ministers or whatever. Politicians should be burned, neither policemen nor innocent people!!!

voxfreax - 14 May 2010 - 11:27:56

223 posts

Hello MacDeath! I read your whole post and i agree. At my first post, I was just surprised of my finding. It was really strange for me to see that MaDe's dog (which was actually transfered from Amiga) was originally transfered by a cover of a Tankard's record.

I am not against transferring/ scanning in general... As you said, is a good way to train and improve yourself. The most important thing is to 'take care' of the transfer (find the most appropriate colors, make smoothing nice, improve the edges, etc etc) like a lot of CPC guys do, including me in some cases...
But there are people that just transfer and show this work as their own and THAT is FUCKING LAME and USELESS!!!!

Anyway, I am happy to read about your R-Type project :) I think CPC misses a proper version of this game, despite the fact that i am not such of a gamer :)

PS. Rex is right in his post. Some stupid guys burned 3 bank clerks after throwing molotov coctails inside a bank... Policemen cannot be burned that easily... But the real enemy is not the police. The real enemy is the Greek parliament and the 300 thieves that claim to be ministers or whatever. Politicians should be burned, neither policemen nor innocent people!!!

MacDeath - 17 May 2010 - 10:57:28	179 posts
R-Type was interesting graphically... So yeah, the speccy graphical massacre was good for Sprectumisers...but unfit for the CPC, even if in Mode1. And yes, so many "Artist" ported existing image and claimed them to be theirs. But hey, what would you expect from Hackerz... In B4 the internet, such forfait could pass unnoticed...But now the information and media are globalised, we all easily uncover those Fakes pretencious bastards... But the fact is, porting properly a sweet Frazeta or incredible Artwork masterpiece on 8 bit computer is good in itself, just too bad scener never cited their models/sources.

MacDeath - 17 May 2010 - 10:57:28

179 posts

R-Type was interesting graphically...
So yeah, the speccy graphical massacre was good for Sprectumisers...but unfit for the CPC, even if in Mode1.

And yes, so many "Artist" ported existing image and claimed them to be theirs.
But hey, what would you expect from Hackerz...

In B4 the internet, such forfait could pass unnoticed...But now the information and media are globalised, we all easily uncover those Fakes pretencious bastards...

But the fact is, porting properly a sweet Frazeta or incredible Artwork masterpiece on 8 bit computer is good in itself, just too bad scener never cited their models/sources.

MacDeath - 17 May 2010 - 10:58:59	179 posts
@ Voxfreax : This is madnezz... THIS IS SPARTA !!!!

PulkoMandy - 12 May 2012 - 14:36:45	633 posts
http://pulko.mandy.pagesperso-orange.fr/shinra/makingof.shtml Just updated with making of GirlAE-2010 picture. Sorry it took so long, I had lost the files somewhere on my hard disk and just found them back :)

MacDeath - 12 May 2012 - 18:17:02	179 posts
interesting.

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