Push'n'Pop | Amstrad CPC Demoscene

Presentation

MaV - 12 April 2012 - 14:19:04	79 posts
Bok, bonefish! :) It's good to see some from a completely unexpected corner of Europe. The Reset party will be the best spot to get to know like-minded CPC users! Pozdrav iz Austrije! MaV

eliot - 12 April 2012 - 14:30:13	251 posts
@bonefish: great! We're waiting for you, remote or not! :)

voxfreax - 12 April 2012 - 14:46:27	223 posts
Hello bonefish and welcome to our lair :) Happy to see new people around!

bonefish - 12 April 2012 - 15:03:43	40 posts
thanks guys (expecially MaV who managed to get the croatian words correctly)!! already feel very welcome here. :))

Hicks - 12 April 2012 - 16:34:13	458 posts
A croatian CPC team, what a nice news! Can you say who is working on CPC in your team? (coder? graphician? musician?) Do you work on (or simply have) the real hardware? You are of course very welcome in our scene!

eliot - 12 April 2012 - 17:03:51	251 posts
Other croatian guys have already been involved in some CPC productions: Games And maybe in demo: CPC and cracks/tools : ex-YU... I can't be sure it's 100% croatian.

bonefish - 13 April 2012 - 14:47:10	40 posts
@eliot: that's true. we had very active scene here during the late 80ties and early 90ties, but it died (as everything else) during the breakdown of the yugoslavia. anyway, there are still few of us that are trying to revive it. you can even find some of my old products on this ex-yu site (section amiga, search for groups rebels and reality, nickname vulture). @hicks: there are 3 coders (if we count only cpc oriented guys), 2 graphicians and 2 musicians. some of us have a real hardware (2 coders and 1 musician), but for development we mostly using cross-platform tools and emulators - it's easier that way (not to mention that you can have things like CVS, email, dropbox, ...;)). there are also few "helpers" that support us in our quest (old programming books, manual work, misc research, drinks, ...). that is on cpc. other plarforms may differ (e.g. on amiga, we're still using original assembler, running it on a1200, minimig or winuae).

bonefish - 13 April 2012 - 14:47:10

40 posts

@eliot: that's true. we had very active scene here during the late 80ties and early 90ties, but it died (as everything else) during the breakdown of the yugoslavia. anyway, there are still few of us that are trying to revive it. you can even find some of my old products on this ex-yu site (section amiga, search for groups rebels and reality, nickname vulture).

@hicks: there are 3 coders (if we count only cpc oriented guys), 2 graphicians and 2 musicians. some of us have a real hardware (2 coders and 1 musician), but for development we mostly using cross-platform tools and emulators - it's easier that way (not to mention that you can have things like CVS, email, dropbox, ...;)). there are also few "helpers" that support us in our quest (old programming books, manual work, misc research, drinks, ...). that is on cpc. other plarforms may differ (e.g. on amiga, we're still using original assembler, running it on a1200, minimig or winuae).

PulkoMandy - 13 April 2012 - 18:13:38	633 posts
Take care of testing stuff on real hardware. The CPC emulators are sometimes... surprising :)

bonefish - 14 April 2012 - 01:56:40	40 posts
@pulkomandy, of course we test on real hardware. that's the best part - watching your prod running on the real thing. :)

MaV - 14 April 2012 - 12:35:32	79 posts
The CRTC and the AY-sound are the most problematic in CPC-emulation. I know of one guy who composed in an emulator and nearly despaired when he heard the result on the real thing. Rectifying the result is almost double the work.

TotO - 14 April 2012 - 20:53:01	127 posts
And the FDC... Finally, the CPC emulation is a problem. :D

MaV - 14 April 2012 - 21:08:47	79 posts
Indeed, everything but the Z80 is not emulated properly enough. I'm not even sure the correct sequence to prolong the timings of the instructions in CPC is 100% right.

PulkoMandy - 15 April 2012 - 08:37:01	633 posts
Well, WinAPE even gets some undocumented z80 stuff wrong. So... There are other emulators that do much better (but still not perfect). The AY core from Reloaded (which is close to Arkos Tracker one) is quite good, but the problem is emulating the amplifier and the small internal speaker. This is not a problem for bigscreen-targeted demos, however. CPCBox and ACE have fairly accurate emulation of the CRTC, z80 and Gate Array. Their AY code should be rather good as well. AC gets the FDC mostly right. The problem here is actually the DSK format, which just can't describe a floppy precisely enough. But it's very possible to write an accurate emulator. The problem is more that we're using emulators designed for less powerful computers, and the solution to get realtime emulation was to take a lot of shortcuts. Now the code is all messy and it's very hard to fix it and make it work the right way. As ACE and CPCBox shows, starting from scratch gets good results much faster.

PulkoMandy - 15 April 2012 - 08:37:01

633 posts

Well, WinAPE even gets some undocumented z80 stuff wrong. So...

There are other emulators that do much better (but still not perfect).

The AY core from Reloaded (which is close to Arkos Tracker one) is quite good, but the problem is emulating the amplifier and the small internal speaker. This is not a problem for bigscreen-targeted demos, however.

CPCBox and ACE have fairly accurate emulation of the CRTC, z80 and Gate Array. Their AY code should be rather good as well.
AC gets the FDC mostly right. The problem here is actually the DSK format, which just can't describe a floppy precisely enough.

But it's very possible to write an accurate emulator. The problem is more that we're using emulators designed for less powerful computers, and the solution to get realtime emulation was to take a lot of shortcuts. Now the code is all messy and it's very hard to fix it and make it work the right way. As ACE and CPCBox shows, starting from scratch gets good results much faster.

Hicks - 15 April 2012 - 21:49:27	458 posts
Burn these emulators!

phi2x - 15 April 2012 - 23:28:22	131 posts
@Hicks: Bloc Us! :)

bonefish - 16 April 2012 - 14:18:57	40 posts
eh guys... first, let me remind you that this is a "presentation" thread, so this discussion is far off topic. ;) second, as I always tend to say to my dear team members - less empty discussions and idealism about "purisms", more coding (+ composing + drawing)! we can always go back to the roots, use dip switches to enter the z80 opcodes and increment program counter register, but that won't help us to make anything in this century. :))

bonefish - 16 April 2012 - 14:18:57

40 posts

eh guys...
first, let me remind you that this is a "presentation" thread, so this discussion is far off topic. ;)
second, as I always tend to say to my dear team members - less empty discussions and idealism about "purisms", more coding (+ composing + drawing)!
we can always go back to the roots, use dip switches to enter the z80 opcodes and increment program counter register, but that won't help us to make anything in this century. :))

krusty - 16 April 2012 - 14:55:53	326 posts
@bonefish ;) To continue in off topic, at revision I talked with a guy from Abyss Connection (The Mysterious Art, I think) on C64 which typed bytecodes in a monitor until next year... We are less extremist here ;) However you are in the right website to fight with purist people ;) Do not count Benediction in these not productive people. Anyway, whatever is your way of building your project, reminds that things working on CPC emulators often do not work on a real hardware. So think to test early and often on a real machine. Krusty on behalf of the association of cross-dev coders

krusty - 16 April 2012 - 14:55:53

326 posts

@bonefish ;)
To continue in off topic,
at revision I talked with a guy from Abyss Connection (The Mysterious Art, I think) on C64 which typed bytecodes in a monitor until next year...
We are less extremist here ;)

However you are in the right website to fight with purist people ;)
Do not count Benediction in these not productive people.

Anyway, whatever is your way of building your project, reminds that things working on CPC emulators often do not work on a real hardware. So think to test early and often on a real machine.

Krusty on behalf of the association of cross-dev coders

Hicks - 16 April 2012 - 15:04:19	458 posts
Purism don't mean necessary unproductive: Vanity only use the real machine and we are one of the most productive group! I understand what you mean by "purism leads to immobilism", but it would be unfair to attack CPC-only-developpers in general. We already saw a lot of unproductive cross-dev people too! War begins :)

bonefish - 16 April 2012 - 16:26:28	40 posts
@krusty, first - if it wasn't for you, I wouldn't be here. that means it's on you if I made purists angry. ;))) that said, i'm still entering hex codes in the woz monitor to my apple1 (replica, of course) as a method of "loading" the program. :)) (and, if you would see the krusader assembler, you would understand why. :))) ) @hicks, you probably wanted to say "challenge" instead of "war"? ;) i'm still a little bit sensitive (not to say shaken) after reading a very harsh discussion between longshot and rhyno on cpcrules forum. quite demotivating for any newcomer, IMHO. anyway, even that I believe that challenge always leads to great productions, that's not going to happen here. I have a deep respect for Benediction, Vanity and few other older groups on cpc scene, at the same time being aware that we're still have a long way ahead of us. and, to be honest, we're here only for a fun, not to reviwe the cpc scene. as for the "purist" way, everyone can choose whatever he/she likes. I know people that used mechanical keyboards on zx spectrum in 1983. didn't make their releases any less worthy that from the rest of us - rubber pushers. :) not to mention those "rich bastards" that had a microdrives while we were having "fun" of loading devpac/gens from tape every time the code crashed. heck, even mathew smith used tandy trs-80 to make a legendary manic miner. took me a 30 years to realise that I was very naive then. also, aren't being a being a purist include not using any of the peripherals made after 80ties? (like HxC, CPCbooster+, RAMcard, ...) ;))))) at the end, not being a purist (expecially the musicians), create some very interesting anecdotes that I will enjoy telling you guys at the parties. :)

bonefish - 16 April 2012 - 16:26:28

40 posts

@krusty, first - if it wasn't for you, I wouldn't be here. that means it's on you if I made purists angry. ;))) that said, i'm still entering hex codes in the woz monitor to my apple1 (replica, of course) as a method of "loading" the program. :)) (and, if you would see the krusader assembler, you would understand why. :))) )

@hicks, you probably wanted to say "challenge" instead of "war"? ;) i'm still a little bit sensitive (not to say shaken) after reading a very harsh discussion between longshot and rhyno on cpcrules forum. quite demotivating for any newcomer, IMHO. anyway, even that I believe that challenge always leads to great productions, that's not going to happen here. I have a deep respect for Benediction, Vanity and few other older groups on cpc scene, at the same time being aware that we're still have a long way ahead of us. and, to be honest, we're here only for a fun, not to reviwe the cpc scene.

as for the "purist" way, everyone can choose whatever he/she likes. I know people that used mechanical keyboards on zx spectrum in 1983. didn't make their releases any less worthy that from the rest of us - rubber pushers. :) not to mention those "rich bastards" that had a microdrives while we were having "fun" of loading devpac/gens from tape every time the code crashed. heck, even mathew smith used tandy trs-80 to make a legendary manic miner. took me a 30 years to realise that I was very naive then.

also, aren't being a being a purist include not using any of the peripherals made after 80ties? (like HxC, CPCbooster+, RAMcard, ...) ;)))))

at the end, not being a purist (expecially the musicians), create some very interesting anecdotes that I will enjoy telling you guys at the parties. :)

Hicks - 16 April 2012 - 16:43:23	458 posts
@Bonefish: it's mainly a joke, I don't want really to speak of pro-CPC/pro-cross dev because the CPCscene already speak a lot of that in the early 2000. I think that this subject piss off everybody now, because everybody already express her thoughts on this subject... To my mind, the old opposition CPC-dev/Cross-dev is outdated, I prefer the productive/unproductive one. It's why I feel closer to Benediction than Overlanders today. About Rhino/Longshot discussion. Voxfreax already says the same thing than you at Revision, he was shocked by Longshot's talk. I think it's mainly a misunderstanding, Longshot don't want to denigrate Rhino's demo, but just go wrong on some technical points (especially scrollzoom and rotozoom). Except that, from my point of view the discussion was interesting because we can see two different approach of demomaking confronting each other. I already meet Longshot, as a lot of peaople here, and I can say that he has no bad intentions, he is just very stubborn :)

Hicks - 16 April 2012 - 16:43:23

458 posts

@Bonefish: it's mainly a joke, I don't want really to speak of pro-CPC/pro-cross dev because the CPCscene already speak a lot of that in the early 2000. I think that this subject piss off everybody now, because everybody already express her thoughts on this subject... To my mind, the old opposition CPC-dev/Cross-dev is outdated, I prefer the productive/unproductive one. It's why I feel closer to Benediction than Overlanders today.

About Rhino/Longshot discussion. Voxfreax already says the same thing than you at Revision, he was shocked by Longshot's talk. I think it's mainly a misunderstanding, Longshot don't want to denigrate Rhino's demo, but just go wrong on some technical points (especially scrollzoom and rotozoom). Except that, from my point of view the discussion was interesting because we can see two different approach of demomaking confronting each other. I already meet Longshot, as a lot of peaople here, and I can say that he has no bad intentions, he is just very stubborn :)

MaV - 16 April 2012 - 16:56:32	79 posts
Wow! People, please chill! My comment was actually about the sorry state of emulation. Too many quirks in the hardware have not been addressed properly in emulation yet. If it absolutely has to be I'd code the bits and bytes and kiss them personally before sending them to the Z80, but I prefer the cross-dev way over the alternatives. To each his own. There is for sure one or the other trick that you guys can teach me. (Now if I can find an emulator working natively in Linux, I'd be happy.)

MaV - 16 April 2012 - 16:56:32

79 posts

Wow! People, please chill!

My comment was actually about the sorry state of emulation. Too many quirks in the hardware have not been addressed properly in emulation yet.

If it absolutely has to be I'd code the bits and bytes and kiss them personally before sending them to the Z80, but I prefer the cross-dev way over the alternatives. To each his own. There is for sure one or the other trick that you guys can teach me.

(Now if I can find an emulator working natively in Linux, I'd be happy.)

Hicks - 16 April 2012 - 17:00:16	458 posts
Since MaV is using emulators, I propose to deprive him of dessert at the Reset party :)

MaV - 16 April 2012 - 17:03:51	79 posts
As long as you don't take away the renowned Cidre from me, I'm ok. :P

bonefish - 16 April 2012 - 17:08:13	40 posts
(note to myself: avoid mentioning that you're using cross-dev and emulators while visiting ReSeT party) :)))

PulkoMandy - 16 April 2012 - 18:43:00	633 posts
MaV: under linux you can use Reloaded or Arnold-linux. They are not perfect, but they work (and improvements are welcome ! :)) As for crossdev/cpcdev : just have fun the way you like it ! If people get jealous because you are more productive, that's only their problem ! :)

MaV - 17 April 2012 - 18:49:28	79 posts
Thanks, PulkoMandy! I will have a go at them.

breiztiger - 29 June 2012 - 15:50:16	3 posts
hello all i'm a french boy, 40 years old, and i love cpc old because it's my first computer i have lots of computer like amiga, commodore, amstrad, apple, spectrum, thomson, etc ... in my car park i came at reset #8 for the first time (philippe) nice to see that amstrad is not dead !!!

eliot - 29 June 2012 - 15:54:49	251 posts
Welcome here and nice to have met you! Hope you'll enjoy all you've seen at the ReSeT party...

MacDeath - 29 June 2012 - 20:36:09	179 posts
according to certains, even doing PLUS stuff is worse than emulators... CPC was good for its time, but still, a few gigas, fast loading, multi hi-res screens, GUI and so on is good an a better environment to do stuff. As long as you verify you stuffactually work or look/sound well on the real machine a debug it . but hey, Mav is the proud owner of a french 6128PLUS... so half the french CPCguys hate him... :-D

MacDeath - 29 June 2012 - 20:36:09

179 posts

according to certains, even doing PLUS stuff is worse than emulators...
CPC was good for its time, but still, a few gigas, fast loading, multi hi-res screens, GUI and so on is good an a better environment to do stuff.

As long as you verify you stuffactually work or look/sound well on the real machine a debug it .

but hey, Mav is the proud owner of a french 6128PLUS... so half the french CPCguys hate him...
:-D

Beb - 29 June 2012 - 20:42:42	168 posts
@MacDeath: For me, and in a Push'n'Pop way of life (Demomaking) you have to use the same hardware to have competition. (When I'm doing judo I hope my opponent don't have a machine-gun to beat me. It could be unfair :) ) So if you're agree with that. Amstrad 6128plus is an other computer just like the C64. And it's interresting if someone do interresting stuff on it... That's all... Cheers :)

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